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General Posts #258

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Phoenix


2/4/2010 12:05:46 PM
All,

Ok I know I've carpped on about this before but I want to keep this alive. There must be some way of finding out on which dispersal each individual aircraft was usually parked without hacking into the Pentagon :shock: . I remember Paul mentioning something about mission briefs or similar but how do we access them and for that matter any other offical data? I await answers in great anticipation 😃

Roger dodger

Dale

improvise, adapt, overcome
win-win


2/4/2010 1:14:30 PM
Hi Phoenix"
Certainly agree - I keep look for that 'mother lode' of operational info and detail, too.

Although the numbering of hardstands seems 'known', as well as the general areas sround the runways each Squadron was assigned, however, which hardstands exactly, were assigned to each Squadron (presuming that was actually done) remains a bit 'fuzzy', at least to me.

And your question, what A/C was assigned each 'parking place' is even fuzzier, at least to me.

I did see some Tower Log entries that identified specific hardstands (but it was usually for construction or something temporary).


MaryAlice


2/4/2010 5:47:37 PM
Ok guys, have some patience with teh rookie....but why is this revelant? Are teh dispersals still @? I guess what I am asking is....Why are you asking teh question that you are Phoenix? What info are you looking to receive? if, you don't mind me asking that is...

Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"
Paul Bellamy


2/4/2010 7:24:09 PM
It is relevant as it's historical information that is on the verge of being lost forever, if it hasn't been already.

In much the same way as we're able to say that your Grandfather lived on Site 8 while he was stationed at Deenethorpe, which means he would have lived in 18'x60' Jane's Hut designed to sleep up to 24 men, which was a timber framed building with an asbestos pitched roof, clad externally with vertical corrugated iron and internally with chicken-wire with a felt covering. There would have been a single coke-fuelled stove in the middle of the building, which would have smouldered all evening while the guys tried to keep warm, and would have glowed brightly at night, making it too hot to sleep before the early-morning call to mission briefing.
Each morning he would have walked to a brick-built ablutions building which could only accommodate 14 men at any one time to wash and shave, before walking a quarter-mile south to the Combat Mess for breakfast. On mission days this would normally be in total darkness outside, with nothing more than a hooded flashlight to guide the way if he was lucky.
After breakfast he would have gotten into the back of a GMC 6x6 truck and been taken to the Briefing Building, where he would have collected his flying clothing, life preserver, parachute and harness and gun barrels, before heading out to a fuelled and armed Mary Alice waiting on her dispersal.

But which dispersal? Did he have a short walk to the nearby ones, or was it a mile away at the other end of the airfield with the weight of his gear digging into his shoulder and try to get a ride in a truck?
Well, we know the 615th were fortunate to have their aircraft parked on the dispersals closest to the briefing building, so he would have had a short walk to the plane. Depending on the date, Mary Alice could have been on any dispersal between No. 23 and No.33, arrowed in green below:



All the best,
Paul

Paul Bellamy

MaryAlice


2/5/2010 9:38:06 AM
"Paul Bellamy":
It is relevant as it's historical information that is on the verge of being lost forever, if it hasn't been already.

In much the same way as we're able to say that your Grandfather lived on Site 8 while he was stationed at Deenethorpe, which means he would have lived in 18'x60' Jane's Hut designed to sleep up to 24 men, which was a timber framed building with an asbestos pitched roof, clad externally with vertical corrugated iron and internally with chicken-wire with a felt covering. There would have been a single coke-fuelled stove in the middle of the building, which would have smouldered all evening while the guys tried to keep warm, and would have glowed brightly at night, making it too hot to sleep before the early-morning call to mission briefing.
Each morning he would have walked to a brick-built ablutions building which could only accommodate 14 men at any one time to wash and shave, before walking a quarter-mile south to the Combat Mess for breakfast. On mission days this would normally be in total darkness outside, with nothing more than a hooded flashlight to guide the way if he was lucky.
After breakfast he would have gotten into the back of a GMC 6x6 truck and been taken to the Briefing Building, where he would have collected his flying clothing, life preserver, parachute and harness and gun barrels, before heading out to a fuelled and armed Mary Alice waiting on her dispersal.

But which dispersal? Did he have a short walk to the nearby ones, or was it a mile away at the other end of the airfield with the weight of his gear digging into his shoulder and try to get a ride in a truck?
Well, we know the 615th were fortunate to have their aircraft parked on the dispersals closest to the briefing building, so he would have had a short walk to the plane. Depending on the date, Mary Alice could have been on any dispersal between No. 23 and No.33, arrowed in green below:



All the best,
Paul





AAAAHHHHHHHHHHH, NOW it is starting to makse sense to me!! I have had a hard time (as you know) trying to picture a "dispersal" and kept seeing a "curb" the plane pulled up to, and hence me wondering what was so special about that. NOW, after it was explained to me in "kiddie" language, I understand COMPLETELY!!!

OK, so we know then that the 615th (my grandpa's) was parked rather close, but NOT teh exact palce is known, and you guys are all trying to find out EXACTLY where each plane was parked. Correct? OK, ok, now making sense to me. THANKS Paul for having patience with me.

Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"
Phoenix


2/5/2010 12:14:48 PM
Paul,

Brilliant explaination old son and a brilliant aerial photo as well, is that from that file you were going to copy for me 😃

@ Mary A, if I could just add that knowing this information means that the likes of Paul and myself can locate within reasonable accuracy the exact spot where aircraft sat. We can visit the spot be it now grass, ploughed field or bushes, make photographic records, soak in the history and more importantly show folk like yourself who come to visit the airfield exactly where their family members ate, slept, relaxed, got briefed and started their missions to occupied Europe, it's what honouring history is all about. We need to act fast before it all disappears under the ever increasing pressure for more housing.

Dale

improvise, adapt, overcome
Paul Bellamy


2/5/2010 12:28:35 PM
"Phoenix":
Paul,

Brilliant explaination old son and a brilliant aerial photo as well, is that from that file you were going to copy for me 😃


Oops, sorry Dale. Mind like a sieve sometimes. 🤦
It's an 8.5Mb file so I might be able to cram it into an e-mail over the weekend.

TTFN,
Paul

Paul Bellamy

win-win


2/5/2010 1:25:48 PM
...And if you (Mary Alice) would like to see Deenethorpe, right-now today, for free,
download Google Earth and search for 'Deenethorpe'.
You'll be able to 'hover' effortlessly over the Air Base and surrounds,
see those fields Paul mentioned, and compare 'then and now'.


MaryAlice


2/5/2010 5:18:09 PM
"Phoenix":
Paul,

Brilliant explaination old son and a brilliant aerial photo as well, is that from that file you were going to copy for me 😃

@ Mary A, if I could just add that knowing this information means that the likes of Paul and myself can locate within reasonable accuracy the exact spot where aircraft sat. We can visit the spot be it now grass, ploughed field or bushes, make photographic records, soak in the history and more importantly show folk like yourself who come to visit the airfield exactly where their family members ate, slept, relaxed, got briefed and started their missions to occupied Europe, it's what honouring history is all about. We need to act fast before it all disappears under the ever increasing pressure for more housing.

Dale



Yes, now it is all coming together for me...and YES I love teh then/now pics, and that is why I was asking...what was teh relevance to your question (which I now understand) I kept picturing "curbs" of concrete off to the side in a pile, and was like, why are they wanting to know where these piles of old concrete curbs are at. But again, NOW I can see it...

Yes, knowing where things were parked (exact locations) and people slept/walked/ate, etc....get me excited...and that was a reason why I wanted to know if my grandpa had slept @ there. SO, I could see where he slept (even if building wasn't/isn't there,the LAND still is), and knowing my Grandpa walked/slept, etc... on that land, IS exciting for me, and one day, God willing, I will be able to see it up clsoe and personal!

Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"
Phoenix


4/13/2010 1:46:10 PM
Derrick,

I know you will look at this so I'll tell you that I tried to get photos of 'Mary Alice's' dispersal on the forum but I am having mega problems with the accursed photobucket so I have e-mailed them to you. Now if you can put them on the forum please do so 😉

Yohoho

Dale

improvise, adapt, overcome
MaryAlice


4/14/2010 3:29:16 PM
"Phoenix":
Derrick,

I know you will look at this so I'll tell you that I tried to get photos of 'Mary Alice's' dispersal on the forum but I am having mega problems with the accursed photobucket so I have e-mailed them to you. Now if you can put them on the forum please do so 😉

Yohoho

Dale


You know me all to well!!! I will check my email right now!!!

Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"
MaryAlice


4/14/2010 3:42:15 PM
Got it..Pics coming!!!

Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"
MaryAlice


4/14/2010 4:25:28 PM
OK guys, my computer is doing some really weird stuff. So, gonna try and post pics first, then coem back on label them, as eveytime I try to do at same time, computer locks up:

On edit:
I am adding the diagram Paul was so kind enough to draw up for us. he added this diagram later on in the post, but thought I could add it in my post, so guys could get a better "visualization" with it being closer to the "source"

Diagram:


Pics:

Approach - this is from the eastern perimeter track with the link trainer building in the top right corner-ish



Approach(1) - as above but a bit further down the track


Dispersal 23 - what is left of the concrete dispersal viewed from the tech site


Dispersal 23 (a) - more of the above



Dispersal 23 - the dispersal looking toward the tech site, note the buildings in the background



Dispersal 23 (c) - more of the above


Dispersal 23 (d) - and looking toward the bomb dump roughly the direction the crew photo was taken from that we used to identify the dispersal




Hopefully this worked, and if it does, we can thank Dale for teh great pics!!!!

Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"
MaryAlice


4/14/2010 4:35:22 PM
Oh, and if I put them in wrong order, it's ALL MY FAULT...again, computer was doing some crazy stuff. So, Dale if I messed up the order, let me know, and I can flip flop 'em...I THINK i got them right, but again, in case I did not...jus tlet me know. Again, MANY THANKS TO DALE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"
Phoenix


4/15/2010 11:19:48 AM
Derrick,

You sure did get them in the right order 😃 great stuff and I hope you enjoy them, now me and photobucket have some serious issues at this time :evil:

All the best

Dale

improvise, adapt, overcome
MaryAlice


4/18/2010 12:54:49 PM
"Phoenix":
Derrick,

You sure did get them in the right order 😃 great stuff and I hope you enjoy them, now me and photobucket have some serious issues at this time :evil:

All the best

Dale



Oh man I mean to tell you! Between my computer and what it was doing, not to mention, Im not the sharpest knife in teh drawer when it comes to computers ANYWAYS, so made for a BAD deal!!! LOL!!!

Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"
Paul Bellamy


4/18/2010 1:23:34 PM
Rough sketch showing the locations of the photos:



All the best,
Paul

Paul Bellamy

Phoenix


4/18/2010 1:48:42 PM
Paul and all,

If I ever get to grips with the accursed photobucket then next on my list is doing the airfield plan arrowy thing that Paul does 😂

Yohoho

Dale

improvise, adapt, overcome
MaryAlice


4/19/2010 8:03:11 AM
Dale, good luck with that. I have tried it, and looks like kids art when I attempt it. Normally all I end up doing is frustrating myself! HAHAHAHA!!! I hope you have better luck then I do at it...I have pretty much given up on that! :mrgreen:


Paul, again, thanks for laying that out for us. Even though as I was looking at the pics Dale provided, I was able to "visualize" what I was looking at, but I was thinking to myself, man, a nice aerial shot describing each pic would be pretty neat to "help" with that visualization....and what do ya know, Paul to rescue!

I almost feel like I should start putting you guys on the "payroll" you guys put in so much work @ here! LOL!!!

Thanks Dale and Paul!!!!

Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"
MaryAlice


4/19/2010 8:08:16 AM
Paul, on your Map, North of the #1 you added, there is a box with a number in it, maybe 23???? Then to teh left of that, it says "No.2"...now, that stretch there, what appears to be a "large" road...is that a runway? Assuming so, but I know where that gets me! Hahaha!

Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"
MaryAlice


4/19/2010 8:14:35 AM
Also Paul and Dale, and everyone else, figured Paul would not mind, but what I did was, I added the diagram that Paul drew up for us to my original post with the pictures. I placed in that post, so it would be closer to the pics, and easier to try and "visualize". Think it worked out pretty good.
Again, thanks Paul and Dale!

Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"
Paul Bellamy


4/19/2010 9:52:08 AM
Yes, that's Runway No.2, Magnetic Heading 280 degrees.

All the best,
Paul

Paul Bellamy

Phoenix


4/19/2010 11:24:08 AM
Derrick,

Do you have a set of the Air Ministry plans of the airfield? That would be the plans that Paul used to show the position of the pics, if not I can get you a set sent over if you so wish.

All the best

Dale

improvise, adapt, overcome
MaryAlice


4/19/2010 2:27:23 PM
"Phoenix":
Derrick,

Do you have a set of the Air Ministry plans of the airfield? That would be the plans that Paul used to show the position of the pics, if not I can get you a set sent over if you so wish.

All the best

Dale



Hmmm, not sure? I have the pics that Paul posted above, teh aerial shots, and that he drew out with green and red arrows, but that is it. Is that what you are refering to? Or no? Guess will have to apologize for the rookie status again, HAHAHA!

Oh also Dale, I sent you an email over the weekend...had a few questions for ya.

Thanks
Derrick

Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"
Paul Bellamy


2/12/2011 3:36:46 PM
"Phoenix":
All,

Ok I know I've carpped on about this before but I want to keep this alive. There must be some way of finding out on which dispersal each individual aircraft was usually parked without hacking into the Pentagon :shock: . I remember Paul mentioning something about mission briefs or similar but how do we access them and for that matter any other offical data? I await answers in great anticipation 😃

Roger dodger

Dale


12 months on and there has been progress!! 😃

Data for Jan-April 1945 only at the moment, built up from the mission formation diagrams showing locations of spare aircraft and interrogation notes:

1: IW-D 7322 then IW-U 8425
Firing butt: IW-Q 7478
2: IW-K 8677 mostly, IW-E 8677 and IW-S 2468 on one occasion each
3: IW-U 8425 mostly, IW-C 8033, SC-C 9993, IW-J 8825 and IW-H 8077 on one occasion each
4: IW-R 7780
5: IW-P 2012 alternating with IW-T 8646
6: IW-G 8259 then IW-X 8565
7: IW-L 0001 then IW-B 7151
8: IW-A 7931
9: IW-C 6033 then IW-S 2468
10: No data
11: SC-M 7039
12: SC-D 6992
13: SC-C 9993 mostly, SC-X 7364 noted once
14: SC-Q 8153 then SC-V 8810 then SC-N 6506
15: SC-A 7628 and SC-J 7790
16: SC-O 7847 then SC-T 8788
17: SC-L 8637
18: SC-U 7947 then SC-R 2393
19: SC-B 1662 and SC-U 7947
20: SC-B 1662 then SC-U 7947 then SC-O 7113
21: SC-H 2398 then SC-N 2398
22: SC-S 8680 and SC-P 8191
23: IY-P 6947
24: IY-N 8810 then IY-L 7551, IY-Q 8077, IY-L 8641 then IY-Q 9148
25: IY-X 1485
26: No data
27: IY-C 2468 then IY-U 7947. IY-L 8641 and IY-Q 9148 also noted later
28: IY-K 8425 then IY-J 8825 with IY-A 8812 once
29: IY-O 8779, IY-F 7664, IY-L 7551, IY-F 7664 again, IY-M 8707, IY-D 8550, IY-O 3153, IY-M 8707 again then IY-O 3153 again
30: IY-P 8758, IY-R 6146, then IY-N 8648 and IY-F 8449
31: IY-M 8371 and IY-Q 8077, then IY-K 8259 and IY-G 8708
32: IY-H 7636 then IY-S 8653 and IY-D 8550
33: IY-C 8033. IN-P 8758 and SC-J 7790 came visiting on a couple of occasions, maybe just out of the Sub-Depot hangar.
34: IN-U 7706
35: IN-P 8449
36: IN-W 8767
37: IN-H 8607 then IN-H 6113 and IN-G 1983
38: IN-L 8941 mostly, then IN-K 1072, IN-M 9125 and IN-P 8758
39: IN-F 6313
40: No data
41: IN-B 6132 then IN-G 1983
42: IN-M 8648 then IN-O 1730
43: No data
44: IN-Q 8550 then IN-C 8160
45: IN-N 8862
46: IN-A 8458
47: IN-J 1591
48: IW-N 8738 then IW-O 7602
49: IW-N 8738
50: IW-Z 8330, IW-Y 7551, IW-G 8791 and IY-F 8449

Paul

Paul Bellamy

donaldbyers


2/12/2011 9:25:30 PM
Great work Paul, I am glad to have someone so up on these issues.

Don

Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.
Phoenix


2/13/2011 8:11:09 AM
Well aint that just a result 😃 so tell me Paul when do actually find time to sleep ‽ 😉

improvise, adapt, overcome
Paul Bellamy


2/13/2011 9:28:30 AM
Lately, I don't... maybe 4am-8am if I'm lucky.

I hate headcolds!

Paul Bellamy