General Posts #259

"Paul Bellamy":
There is not a mix-up with numbers, AAF Olive Drab for aircraft was a different shade to US Army Olive Drab used for vehicles.
However there is an additional FS number allocated that many suppliers use as a substitute standard: FS 34088.

Using the wartime ANA 613 specification number gives a variety of model paint numbers:

XtraColor: 112 Olive Drab ANA 613
Testors Model Master Enamel: 2050 Olive Drab ANA 613
Testors Model Master Acrylic: 4842 Olive Drab ANA 613
Pactra: 5906 Olive Drab ANA 613
Polly Scale: 505080 Olive Drab ANA 613

The Humbrol, Tamiya and Revell "olive drab" paints are the US Army FS 34087 shade.

The underside AF 41 Neutral Grey appears to have been given an approximate ANA number, ANA 43.
Currently, only White Ensign paints produce this exact shade, color AC US 13.

All the best,
Paul

"EDanaII":
OK, quick post, because it's tired and I'm getting late. 🙂

First, here's the links to the two other "build" threads on the Forum:
The Return of the Hard Seventeen.
B17G-35-VE 42-97869 Hula Girl / Maid to Order.

These two builds are different from yours since they are both Aluminum finished, but you may still find them useful.

I also found this forum useful: ARC Air Forums.

Now, some quick tips: you'll need patients (lots of patients) but you probably already new that. You won't have the problem I had with metalizer since you're doing an olive drab plane, but my first B-17 was the Memphis Belle, and I, personally found it difficult to paint the camouflage properly. For precision work, I used a special masking tape for models and a rubberized mask as well. The masking tape allowed for straight line work, like the tail, the rubberized mask allowed me to mask and protect tiny details, such as window frames. Get yourself a magnifier of some sort, preferably one you can wear, and don't forget tools like tweezers, clamps, exacto-knife, sandpaper, etc...

I pained the interiors of my models, but it's not really 100% necessary as much of the detail his hidden when the model is put together. I painted the tail stripe but used decals for the triangle, squadron codes and serial numbers. For the details unique to my plane, I order custom decal paper that allowed me to create what I need on the computer and then print them off.

Enough for now. Gotta get my sorry butte to bed. 🙂

Niterz...

"EDanaII":
OK, quick post, because it's tired and I'm getting late. 🙂

First, here's the links to the two other "build" threads on the Forum:
The Return of the Hard Seventeen.
B17G-35-VE 42-97869 Hula Girl / Maid to Order.

These two builds are different from yours since they are both Aluminum finished, but you may still find them useful.

I also found this forum useful: ARC Air Forums.

Now, some quick tips: you'll need patients (lots of patients) but you probably already new that. You won't have the problem I had with metalizer since you're doing an olive drab plane, but my first B-17 was the Memphis Belle, and I, personally found it difficult to paint the camouflage properly. For precision work, I used a special masking tape for models and a rubberized mask as well. The masking tape allowed for straight line work, like the tail, the rubberized mask allowed me to mask and protect tiny details, such as window frames. Get yourself a magnifier of some sort, preferably one you can wear, and don't forget tools like tweezers, clamps, exacto-knife, sandpaper, etc...

I pained the interiors of my models, but it's not really 100% necessary as much of the detail his hidden when the model is put together. I painted the tail stripe but used decals for the triangle, squadron codes and serial numbers. For the details unique to my plane, I order custom decal paper that allowed me to create what I need on the computer and then print them off.

Enough for now. Gotta get my sorry butte to bed. 🙂

Niterz...

"Phoenix":
Mary A,

If you ever get to read the book 'Flying Fortress - Claims to Fame' chapter somethingorother on the 'Mary Alice' the narrative from one crew member describes her as "a sorry old state patched up in a mixture of olive and natural metal panels everywhere" (battle damage repair) 😉 so if you don't get the right shade of paint, you got some poetic license 😛

Tally Ho

Dale

"MaryAlice":
Zinc Chromate
Black
Silver
Grey
Gun Metal
Olive Drab
Brown
Dark Green
Light Grey
Flat Aluminum
Chromate green
White
Red
Yellow
Dull Silver
Aluminum
Brass

"EDanaII":
(quote="MaryAlice")Zinc Chromate
Black
Silver
Grey
Gun Metal
Olive Drab
Brown
Dark Green
Light Grey
Flat Aluminum
Chromate green
White
Red
Yellow
Dull Silver
Aluminum
Brass

"Paul Bellamy":
Ok, here we go.......
Bear in mind I'm referring to the original Monogram instruction booklet here, the current one may vary.

In the main, the colours shown on the instructions are complete fantasy. I'll go through each section in the booklet and say what colour things should be as accurately as I can, whilt trying to keep the number of different paints to a minimum. 😉

Zinc Chromate: Ignore this, it's very rarely used, and for the small areas needed can be mixed from interior green and yellow.
Black: Get a good MATT black paint.
Silver: Again, get a good silver, you'll be using it as a base for other colours too.
Grey: Use the underside grey, you'll also be using this to mix with other colours later.
Gun Metal: A standard paint colour, make sure you mix it well or it will dry in an unpleasant way.
Olive Drab: ANA 613. If all else fails you can mix this shade using US Army OD, and a couple of other colours. I'll have to look the rations up.
Brown: A matt mid-brown will be fine.
Dark Green: This will be used for parts of the interior, hence Interior Green. It's a mid-dark matt bottle green.
Light Grey: Underside grey plus a drop of white.
Flat Aluminum: Silver plus a drop of white.
Chromate green: Interior green plus a drop of white.
White: MATT white.
Red: Signal Red, matt if you can get it.
Yellow: MATT yellow.
Dull Silver: Silver with a drop of black
Aluminum: See Flat Aluminium above.
Brass:

First you have to decide on your interior colours.
The nose, flight deck and radio room compartments were all Interior Green.
The bomb bay, waist section and catwalk under the flight deck could be Interior Green, bare metal (silver) or a combination of the two.
I'd recommend Interior Green for the catwalk, and bare metal for the waist/tail section. You can pick out the vertical ribs in Interior Green in the waist/tail section, ignore the bomb bay as it will be invisible unless you cut open the doors.

1: Tailwheel Assy.
Bulkhead (#20) and wheel strut (#41-41) Interior Green or silver.
Wheel hub, Olive Drab. Use the same ANA 613 OD as for the outside.
Tyre: Black with a touch of white mixed in.

2: Ball turret assy. Ignore this step until much later.

3: Radio Room assembly.
Floor and tabletop are plywood. Use Brown, when dry can be "grained" with brown+white mix if required.
Ball turret support frame (#210) Interior Green, cut off and discard the "brass shells" bit. Oxygen bottle (#202) is Yellow.
Seat #56, cut off the "headrest" and file smooth. Use the back cushion as a guide, you need an even gap around the edge.
The seat cushion is Olive Drab, the back cushion is Yellow. Belts should be painted off-white (White + a tiny amount of brown)
Fwd bulkhead (#18): Interior Green, radio boxes on right of door Aluminium with Interior Green supports. Fire extinguisher Red with Black nozzle and hose. Ignore the flasks and cup dispenser alongside, just paint Interior Green.
Aft bulkhead (#19):
Front wall Interior Green, Olive Drab hand cranks. All radio boxes Black with grey details (dataplates, handles, etc.) Include the ones lower right that are labelled as flat aluminium in the booklet.
Back wall silver with Interior Green frames (ignore the "zinc chromate" panel, paint this silver). The two items of radio gear are black.

I'll continue this later. It might be simpler if I scan the booklet in and amend the directions. 😉

All the best,
Paul

"Jackie (Sharp:
Sheflin")Have you guys seen this picture before?

http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Air_Power/B-17_29/AP28G4.htm



Jackie

"Paul Bellamy":
Putting "USAAF Neutral Grey 43" through the Paint Conversion Chart I found at http://www.paint4models.com/paintchart/ ... 0101.html# gives the following alternatives:

White Ensign: AC US 13, USAAF Neutral Grey 43
Polly Scale: 505382, US Gunship Grey
Quartermaster: 43, Neutral Grey
Revell: 32174, Gunship Grey
Humbrol: 123, Extra Dark Sea Grey
US: ANA 603, Sea Grey
Pactra: 5908, FAA Extra Dark Sea Grey
Testors: 1723, Gunship Grey
xtraColor: 5, RAF Extra Dark Sea Grey and 130, Gunship Grey

Hope that helps,
Paul

"Paul Bellamy":
You're right Derrick,

The paint on the IWM "Mary Alice" has faded badly since I first got to climb inside her in the mid-1980s, and she's usually got a coating of dust which makes it look even lighter.
Somewhere on the forum there's a photo of her outdoors, alongside Sally B which is also painted Olive Drab but a lot more frequently, and the difference between them is astonishing.

"Paul Bellamy":
Coming along nicely there.

Here's a photo of part of the pilot's side window from 42-39825 IN-M Zenobia El Elephanta, which crashed on take-off at Deenthorpe, which has the original ANA 613 Olive Drab on it.



As you can see, it's a pretty good match to the paint you're using. 🙂
Another coat on the wings should get the shade spot on.

One thing I must mention before you glue the wings together.
The 4 rectangular vents behind each engine are hot air exhausts for the oil coolers and superchargers.
These can be opened up carefully by thinning out from the inside if you feel up to it.

I'd strongly recommend downloading the B-17G Erection and Maintenance Manual from HERE to get an understanding of the innards of a Fort before you go much further.
Once you've read that, all the odd lumps-and-bumps on the kit will make sense. 😉

All the best,
Paul

"Paul Bellamy":
Coming on well there. 🙂

A couple of notes:
See my comment regards the engines in the Hard Seventen model thread. I don't know if Revell are using the corrected mould, the other one means some of the engines only fit the pegs when they are upside down. The fix is there too.

The seat cushions and backpads are yellow, no matter what the instructions say.
They were designed to be removeable, as floatation aids in the event of ditching on water.

The glueing issue may be due to the paint.
The solvent won't work too well when there is paint between the two parts of plastic.

Ball turret.
Nicely done, a bit more paint to add though. 😉
There are some good reference photos HERE, and some great footage HERE.
Stripping the existing paint off probably won't work so well.......

Keep up the good work,
Paul

"donaldbyers":
Keep up the good work here!!!

Don

"MaryAlice":

Yellow seats...OK, I was thinking it was only #56 you were talking about, but you are talking about ALL of the seats? I had realized/remembered your post about teh yellow seat AFTER I started to paint it (still not done either way) but was thinking was only for #56..so youa re saying ALL sets are yellow..just to be clear.

"MaryAlice":
OK real quick why I have you guys here....WHAT P51 fought in WWII? i was at Hobby Store other day, and was going to pic up one, but they had 2 different versions of teh P51, so.....did not want to pick up wrong style P51. So, which P51 do I need to pick up guys?

"Paul Bellamy":
(quote="MaryAlice")
Yellow seats...OK, I was thinking it was only #56 you were talking about, but you are talking about ALL of the seats? I had realized/remembered your post about teh yellow seat AFTER I started to paint it (still not done either way) but was thinking was only for #56..so youa re saying ALL sets are yellow..just to be clear.

"Paul Bellamy":
(quote="MaryAlice")OK real quick why I have you guys here....WHAT P51 fought in WWII? i was at Hobby Store other day, and was going to pic up one, but they had 2 different versions of teh P51, so.....did not want to pick up wrong style P51. So, which P51 do I need to pick up guys?

"Phoenix":
Get the tamiya 1/48th P51D, I just finished mine (20th FG just up the road at Kings Cliffe) and it's a great kit far superior to anything Revell pump out 🙄 Oh what a bummer it is when you realise all your interior detailing is not going to be seen :shock: been there, done that, got the T shirt, made the film etc 😉

Dale

"Paul Bellamy":
Especially for Dale........

P-51Ds of the 77th Fighter Squadron, 20th Fighter Group, in formation directly above the western taxiway at Deenethorpe, Deene Hall in the background:



A little later in the same flight, passing the village of Bainton, 6 miles NE of Kingscliffe:



All the best,
Paul

"donaldbyers":
Too bad there wasn' a 401st B-17 in the middle of them, now that would have been a great shot.

Don

"MaryAlice":
What are the difference's in the B/C and D versions of the P-51 Paul? I asked Dale above (and of course any and everyone that may read this) as well, as he said Tamiya makes a nice D version of the P-51, but since I want to go B/C because of time period/Grandpa...can I turn a "D" into a B/C relatively easily, or would I be best served to pick up a B/C from get go?

Thanks guys!!!

"donaldbyers":
Well I just got out of the hospital on Friday after 8 days of incarseration but I will try and find out something this week. I hope he is close to having it complete.

Don

"Paul Bellamy":
(quote="MaryAlice")What are the difference's in the B/C and D versions of the P-51 Paul? I asked Dale above (and of course any and everyone that may read this) as well, as he said Tamiya makes a nice D version of the P-51, but since I want to go B/C because of time period/Grandpa...can I turn a "D" into a B/C relatively easily, or would I be best served to pick up a B/C from get go?

Thanks guys!!!

"MaryAlice":
I might be best served to build a P-38 first, since it appears that it was in service (obviously) before the '51, but also during the same time my Grandpa was flying.

"Paul Bellamy":
(quote="MaryAlice")I might be best served to build a P-38 first, since it appears that it was in service (obviously) before the '51, but also during the same time my Grandpa was flying.

"Paul Bellamy":
The easiest, and most readily available, conversion kit is this one from Paragon Designs (Item #48105):



These usually retail in the US for around $9-$10.
You omit the tail section and gunner's window from the Revell kit, replacing them with these resin and vac-form parts.
The tail guns from the Revell kit are trimmed off and fit into the holes in the resin "pumpkin".

All the best,
Paul

"donaldbyers":
This just reminds me why I don't do this!!!!!!

Don

"Paul Bellamy":
You're so right there Don. 😉
I attempted a home-built Cheyenne Tail on the last 1/48 B-17 I started, back in the early 1990s before all these bolt-on goodies were available.
Suffice to say that last kit never got finished, and became the 401st's latest "hangar queen".
One of the wings can be seen in the Hard Seventeen model thread, illustrating the tin-foil method of applying a bare-metal finish.

The 1/1 scale stuff is so much easier to work on. 😃

All the best,
Paul

"donaldbyers":
I spoke with the guy that is putting my B-17 togeather and he is at the covering phase and then will paint it. He is not putting the markings on it as he doesn't do things like that. I am not sure how I am going to get the rest of it done at this time.

Don

"EDanaII":
What kind of details, Don? Remember, for the more detailed stuff, I used ink-jet decals. It made the nose art for the Hard Seventeen quite easy. Of course, it helped that the nose art was a simple blackjack hand. Easy enough to reproduce. 🙂

@ Mary Alice

Lookin' good, Derrick. Lookin' good.

"Paul Bellamy":
That all seems fine, as it's a part replacement service and they usually don't charge for them.
That's why it's limited to 5 items though. 😉

All the best,
Paul