General Posts #263

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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>1/29/2010 5:28:31 PM 
| Hey guys (and every other member as well of course), I was hoping you could help me out again. With all teh info you guys shared with me on my other thread, you could come to my aid again.<br/> <br/> Well, I have realized I need to REALLy broaden my horizons if I am gonna have a REAL shot at gathering info on my grandpa and his plane, SO....<br/> <br/> I am gonna pick up some books to read....so, am i gonna have better luck at finding a GOOD, DETAILED book on teh 401st, or should I look in another direction? I am trying to start on the smallest scale I can, BUT still get the info I need/want. So, i want to educate myself on the B17 and the members who flew in them is what I want.<br/> <br/> Thanks guys. <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>1/29/2010 5:34:13 PM 
| Oh, I also wanted to let you know I printed out the application and will be joing the group!!! <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''rick_kaufman''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>1/30/2010 5:30:35 AM 
| I am sure that you will receive many suggestions regarding books about the 401st and related WWII 8AF history.  The following suggestions are broken into two parts -<br/> (1) Books that are likely available at public libraries and bookstores.<br/> (2) Rarer, harder to obtain books<br/> I also suggest that you examine the bibliography items on the 401st BG Assn website<br/>  <br/> (1) Readily available books -<br/> <b>One Last Look</b> - (Kaplan, Smith): Outstanding "coffee table" book that provides a high level view of many aspects of WWII 8AF bomber bases and air war.  It includes several images specific to the 401st and Deenethorpe.<br/> <b>Masters of the Air</b> - (Miller): Another excellent book that provides a high level look at WWII US bomber war.<br/> <b>The Bomber Boys: Heroes Who Flew the B-17s in World War II</b> - (Ayres):  I am presently reading this.  This book contains several stories/accounts of individual bomber crew personnel.<br/> <b>Flying Fortress</b> - (Jablonski): Outstanding reference that includes just about everything you would like to know about B-17s.<br/> <b>The Mighty Eighth, A History of the U.S. 8th Army Air Force</b> - (Freeman): Freeman's works are a must read (or at least page through).<br/>  <br/> (2) Rare (hard to obtain)<br/> <b>Pictorial Record of the 401st Bomb Group ("The BlueBook")</b> - [/Gallery/Biblio/target0.html|http://www.401bg.org/Gallery/Biblio/target0.html]: Your grandfather likely had a copy of this book.  It was published in 1946 and was reprinted in the mid 90's.  Careworn copies of this book are frequently brought to reunions by 401st veterans...<br/> <b>401st Bomb Group "The Best Damn Outfit in the USAAF"</b> - (Turner Publishing Co): This book was published in 2000.  It includes extensive information about the 401st including biographies of veterans who submitted them for publication.<br/> <b>Portrait of a Flying Lady </b> -(Menzel):  George Menzel was a bombardier/navigator in the 614th squadron, and a key member of the 401st Bomb Group Assn who went "Forever Aloft" in November 2009.  His book is an outstanding record of the history of the 401st and synopsis of the crews that flew "Maiden USA" (IW-A) in the 614th squadron.<br/> <b>Airfield Focus 37: Deenethorpe</b> - (Smith): A terse "pocket-book" summary of 401st/Deenethorpe<br/> <b>Birds Of A Feather: A Memoir</b> - (Bowman): This memoir was written by the CO of the 401st Bomb Group.  (You may have heard the 401st referred to as "Bowman's Bombers").  I noted that paperback copies of this book are currently available on Amazon for a reasonable price ($12).  Colonel (later General) Bowman was an outstanding leader who was well respected by those who served with him.  My Dad always referred to him as "one hell of a swell guy"!<br/>  <br/> Needless to say, these are a start.  I noted that you intend to join the 401st BG Assn.  I hope you will consider attending the reunion in Savannah (Aug 2010). <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>1/30/2010 9:16:02 AM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"rick_kaufman":</span><br/>I am sure that you will receive many suggestions regarding books about the 401st and related WWII 8AF history.  The following suggestions are broken into two parts -<br/> (1) Books that are likely available at public libraries and bookstores.<br/> (2) Rarer, harder to obtain books<br/> I also suggest that you examine the bibliography items on the 401st BG Assn website<br/>  <br/> (1) Readily available books -<br/> <b>One Last Look</b> - (Kaplan, Smith): Outstanding "coffee table" book that provides a high level view of many aspects of WWII 8AF bomber bases and air war.  It includes several images specific to the 401st and Deenethorpe.<br/> <b>Masters of the Air</b> - (Miller): Another excellent book that provides a high level look at WWII US bomber war.<br/> <b>The Bomber Boys: Heroes Who Flew the B-17s in World War II</b> - (Ayres):  I am presently reading this.  This book contains several stories/accounts of individual bomber crew personnel.<br/> <b>Flying Fortress</b> - (Jablonski): Outstanding reference that includes just about everything you would like to know about B-17s.<br/> <b>The Mighty Eighth, A History of the U.S. 8th Army Air Force</b> - (Freeman): Freeman's works are a must read (or at least page through).<br/>  <br/> (2) Rare (hard to obtain)<br/> <b>Pictorial Record of the 401st Bomb Group ("The BlueBook")</b> - [/Gallery/Biblio/target0.html|http://www.401bg.org/Gallery/Biblio/target0.html]: Your grandfather likely had a copy of this book.  It was published in 1946 and was reprinted in the mid 90's.  Careworn copies of this book are frequently brought to reunions by 401st veterans...<br/> <b>401st Bomb Group "The Best Damn Outfit in the USAAF"</b> - (Turner Publishing Co): This book was published in 2000.  It includes extensive information about the 401st including biographies of veterans who submitted them for publication.<br/> <b>Portrait of a Flying Lady </b> -(Menzel):  George Menzel was a bombardier/navigator in the 614th squadron, and a key member of the 401st Bomb Group Assn who went "Forever Aloft" in November 2009.  His book is an outstanding record of the history of the 401st and synopsis of the crews that flew "Maiden USA" (IW-A) in the 614th squadron.<br/> <b>Airfield Focus 37: Deenethorpe</b> - (Smith): A terse "pocket-book" summary of 401st/Deenethorpe<br/> <b>Birds Of A Feather: A Memoir</b> - (Bowman): This memoir was written by the CO of the 401st Bomb Group.  (You may have heard the 401st referred to as "Bowman's Bombers").  I noted that paperback copies of this book are currently available on Amazon for a reasonable price ($12).  Colonel (later General) Bowman was an outstanding leader who was well respected by those who served with him.  My Dad always referred to him as "one hell of a swell guy"!<br/>  <br/> Needless to say, these are a start.  I noted that you intend to join the 401st BG Assn.  I hope you will consider attending the reunion in Savannah (Aug 2010).</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> Rick..thanks a bunch for this info. At present, my younger brother and I, ARE planning to attend the reunion. Now, a lot can happen/change from here until then, but currently are intentions again, ARE to attend. My Grandpa, was a very special man (and not just because he was my grandpa) that meant alot to me, and losing him has been very rough on me. My Grandpa and I started talking about the War a couple/few years ago, but up to that point, he had been very quiet about it to me. Not sure why. Doesn't matter, because he did start talking to me about it, and even took me into his closet to show me what he had brought back from teh war. His flight book to me was the most special...his penmanship (sp??) was just so incredible, and his book was filled out with such detail, but also with so much CARE. You know? I mean, he was PROUD to have filled that out..he WANTED to do it, and you coudl tell, was not just some burden for him. But, that was my Grandpa...he took pride in everything he did..if he was gonna do it, he took his time, and did it right.<br/> <br/> So, anyways, leading up to his death, I had started actually gathering info as I wanted to present him with a surprise. I had not set a timetable, and as naive as this may sound, it was because i really thougt my grandpa was gonna live longer then ME. Well,nowthat he is gone, I find myself "alone" in gathering this info. I mean, what better place to gather info, than from the man that was there, right? So, I do not mean to disrespect any of you guys when I say "alone" in teh above sentence..I think you kow what I mean, or at least I hope you do.<br/> <br/> Rick, thank you for teh tips/info you shared, and I will look into those books you have listed for me, and when I have more questions, or jsut wan to say hey, or thanks..will be @.<br/> <br/> Thanks guys for helping me gather what I need in hopes of finding out more about Grandpa, the Mary Alice, and the 401st. <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>1/30/2010 3:47:30 PM 
| Also guys, had a quetion for you...does anyone "know" Linda McCabe? Reason I ask is, going through the website, and looking at my Grandpa's "crew" picture, and it says, "Photo courtesy of Linda McCabe"...and got me to thinking, that MAYBE she is related to a member of the crew,and she has more info, or I could be TOTALLY off, and she jsut helped put that photo on the website.<br/> <br/> Anyways, make any sense what I am asking/saying?<br/> <br/> Thanks guys. <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''donaldbyers''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/donaldbyers.jpg' /></div><br/>1/30/2010 8:28:44 PM 
| Rick posted a good list for you that you to read. <br/><br/>Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.<br/> 
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| '''win-win''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>1/30/2010 8:40:51 PM 
| Some other 'books' info:<br/> <br/> If you go to our 'Search' tab, and click on 'Bibliography', you'll see a list of books Rick mentioned as well as others.  Some eamples:<br/> - - 'B-17 Fortress at War'  by Roger A. Freeman, is chock-a-block with B-17 related info, including what each Crew member's job was; and<br/> - - '401st bomb Group - The Best Damn Outfit in the USAAF', is about the 401st, out of print I think.<br/> <br/> Another suggestion:  Get a library card for a local library that has 'Inter-Library-Loan services.  That way, you'll be able to find a lot of the books listed (and others) and borrow them -  The local library searches and has an available copy sent to them reserved for you (to then to go your local library to read, some you can even borrow for a week or two) and get to 'snoop' in them to your heart's content. <br/> <br/> And finally, if you find what you like (list or library) you can 'Google' titles for lots of sites selling them, in all price ranges and sonditions, new and used.<br/> <br/> Good hunting. <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''donaldbyers''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/donaldbyers.jpg' /></div><br/>1/30/2010 11:29:26 PM 
| Two other books are:<br/> <br/> The Lucky Ones: Erik Dyreborg<br/> Misssion 376:  Battle over the Reich: 28 May 1944  Ivo de Jong<br/> <br/> These two guys I know and they should be availabe at Amazon.com<br/> <br/> Don Byers <br/><br/>Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.<br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>1/31/2010 9:21:48 AM 
| Don and win-win, I keep saying thanks, and maybe is getting old, me telling you guys that, but can't help it. Granted, I know that is what a forum such as this is meant for, but still, you don't HAVE to spend the time reading my post's, answering my questions, blah blha blah, but you do...so, THANKS!!<br/> <br/> I have added the books above to my list taht Rick had given me, and I went walking down on teh Riverwalk (San Antonio) last night, and brought that list with me..but no such luck finding a bookstore. However,I DID find:<br/> <br/> THE ALAMO!!!!  Hahaha....I have actually been here a few times already, but it NEVER gets old visiting The Alamo...again, so much history (which I LOVE), and of course, all part of our "Armed Forces", technically speaking anyways. It was my kids (ages 4 and 2) first trip to the Alamo, but not last.<br/> <br/> Well guys, i SHOULD be able to put all of this info I have received from everyone to good use when I get back into town, and my model plane SHOULD be waiting on me as well when I get home this evening.<br/> <br/> I am sure I will have LOTS more questions to ask, AND since I am joining, you guys will see me on a pretty regular basis as well. not to mention, will post progress pics of "Mary Alice" up here on teh forum for all to see, from scratch to completed! <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''donaldbyers''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/donaldbyers.jpg' /></div><br/>1/31/2010 4:37:59 PM 
| I lived in San Antonio for 6 years and graduated from Highland High School  in  1967.  We moved to Houston the very next day.  Two years later I went to the recruiter and joined the Army the same day with delayed enlistmet.<br/> <br/> Don <br/><br/>Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.<br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/1/2010 10:15:53 AM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"donaldbyers":</span><br/>I lived in San Antonio for 6 years and graduated from Highland High School  in  1967.  We moved to Houston the very next day.  Two years later I went to the recruiter and joined the Army the same day with delayed enlistmet.<br/> <br/> Don</blockquote><br/> <br/> Well looks like you have been part of Texas for quite some time now, ALL RIGHT!!!  I actually lived in Round Rock for @ 2 years back in teh early 80's, and went to Round Rock High School for 1 year...LOVED that area..went fishing on Lake Travis many weekends.<br/> <br/> Where in "H Town" did you live (if you don't mind me asking)? <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''donaldbyers''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/donaldbyers.jpg' /></div><br/>2/1/2010 2:10:35 PM 
| I lived on Waterloo which was just off the Almeda Highway.  I could see the Astrodome from the house.<br/> <br/> Don <br/><br/>Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.<br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/1/2010 4:46:57 PM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"donaldbyers":</span><br/>I lived on Waterloo which was just off the Almeda Highway.  I could see the Astrodome from the house.<br/> <br/> Don</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> Well, things have definitely changed @ here, and that part of town as well. The good old Astrodome, those were the days!  In fact, my Brother and I took our Grandpa to one of teh very last Astros games played in the Astrodome. He was a HUGE Basbeball fan, loved everything about it. So, when "Minute Maid Park" (back then, when it first opened, it was called Enron Field before Minute Maid park) opened, we took Grandpa took one of the first games in the new park as well.<br/> Man we had fun!! <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/1/2010 4:55:06 PM 
| Also, quick question....I filled out my form, and says to send a check...can I send a money order instead? <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''donaldbyers''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/donaldbyers.jpg' /></div><br/>2/2/2010 9:13:08 AM 
| I suspect they would take a Money Order.<br/> <br/> Don <br/><br/>Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.<br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/2/2010 9:27:43 AM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"donaldbyers":</span><br/>I suspect they would take a Money Order.<br/> <br/> Don</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> OK, great. Just checking. Hard to explain why i don't "want" to send a check, but wife is weird about our checkbook and balancing it, and with checks, she likes a check to be deposited ASAP, so they can clear, and she can "check it off" and be done with it. So,  with a company that she is not familiar with (like the 401st Bombardment Group Association, Inc) she does not know how long they will sit on the check, so she prefers me sending a money order if I can, and is why I asked.<br/> Wife is very "strange" (in a good way though) when it comes to our finances, but she wants an early retirement, so she spends alot of time/energy on taking care of all of that.<br/> Anyways, it comes down to money order being simpler for her, in a nutshell.<br/> Thanks Don. <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/2/2010 2:00:59 PM 
| Well, I picked up my first book today.  Was able to find "Masters of the Air" at my local Barnes and Noble. Gonna start reading it tonight..... <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''donaldbyers''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/donaldbyers.jpg' /></div><br/>2/2/2010 3:14:58 PM 
| I too like to have a quick action on my checks but I also realize that can't always happen.<br/> <br/> Don <br/><br/>Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.<br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/2/2010 4:57:04 PM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"donaldbyers":</span><br/>I too like to have a quick action on my checks but I also realize that can't always happen.<br/> <br/> Don</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> No doubt about that Don, and is why we (or should say she) likes to try and keep to a mininum (checks floating around). <br/> <br/> Also, got money order and envelope is now in mail!!!! <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/3/2010 9:16:52 AM 
| "Masters of the Air"....WOW!!!! Started reading last night, and found myself not able to put it down. I was able to read up until Eaker's Amateurs before I had to hit teh rack for teh evening (it was @ midnight).<br/> <br/> Anyways, I have already learned SO much from those few pages, and educated me on everything from how war started ( I did NOT know Germany declared war on us) to statistics (had NO idea 77% of our planes were shot down before DDay).<br/> <br/> You know, I was always under the impression that Germany was becoming teh tyrant that it had become, and because they were threatening to overtake England/France, that we declared War on THEM (and Japan of course). I was not aware that Germany declared war on us...I find that VERY interesting, and hence look forward to finding out much more, and how little i acutally did know about our involvement in the War. And strange thing is, I am reading up on B-17'/crew and finding this out...could only imagine what I could find out about the War if i actually read a book on teh War itself.<br/> <br/> Goes to show that A)They don't teach enough in school on the War or B)I just did not pay enough attention<br/> <br/> However, I have always liked history, and have been interested in it, so I would have thought I would have payed attention....but hard to say since it has been so long. I graduated HS 20 years ago... <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''donaldbyers''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/donaldbyers.jpg' /></div><br/>2/3/2010 4:56:15 PM 
| The answer was (A) they didn't teach enough!!!!!! and still don't.....<br/> <br/> Don <br/><br/>Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.<br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/3/2010 6:15:18 PM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"donaldbyers":</span><br/>The answer was (A) they didn't teach enough!!!!!! and still don't.....<br/> <br/> Don</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> Thanks for "backing me up"!! Well Don, what i can tell you is this...I AM learning, and now that I am, everyone in my family will benefit because I LOVE to talk!! <br/> <br/> Also Don, I have something that may be of interest to you (sure that it will be). I am gonna start another thread for it, so I can give it an "appropriate" title for all to see/read...give me a few minutes, and I will have it up in teh General Posts section... <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''EDanaII''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/EDanaII.jpg' /></div><br/>2/3/2010 6:33:16 PM 
| "The War" is a pretty big subject, in and of itself, teaching it in anything short a 2 year course will always be woefully inadequate.<br/> <br/> My sources are the History Channel, Wikipedia, the 401st and, of course, my dad. &#x1f642; That's were I gets much o' my learnin'  <nowiki>--</nowiki>  not that it's all that much. &#x1f609; <br/><br/><a href='/p2769.ashx'><img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/wmSig401st150p.gif' /></a><br/> <br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/3/2010 6:43:16 PM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"EDanaII":</span><br/>"The War" is a pretty big subject, in and of itself, teaching it in anything short a 2 year course will always be woefully inadequate.<br/> <br/> My sources are the History Channel, Wikipedia, the 401st and, of course, my dad. &#x1f642; That's were I gets much o' my learnin'  <nowiki>--</nowiki>  not that it's all that much. ;)</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> Hey EDana....Hard Seventeen...I think I just came across that plane in a book. Will have to go back and double check "Masters of the Air", as I just started reading it last night....Granted, you may already know about what i am talking about...just thought I would let you know that it rang a bell to me, and I just know I read it sometime yesterday. So, was either in my book, or one of teh books I was thumbing through yeterday at barnes and noble... <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''EDanaII''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/EDanaII.jpg' /></div><br/>2/3/2010 6:47:45 PM 
| Or you mighta read about it on this site. There's a thread devoted to it where Paul helped my reconstruct a 1/48 scale replica of the plane. (And it's Deja Vu all over again!) &#x1f642; <br/><br/><a href='/p2769.ashx'><img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/wmSig401st150p.gif' /></a><br/> <br/> 
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| '''Phoenix''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/4/2010 4:06:22 AM 
| Mary Alice,<br/> <br/> Just reading through this thread and retracing it to the beginning you may be interested to know that in 'The Pictoral History of the 401st' "The Blue Book" there is a dedicated article to a mission flown by 'Mary Alice' a lot to do with her reputation for being the most battle damaged B-17 in the 8th!!!!! I think. They do come up occasionally on e-bay etc. can't help more than that as I had to sell all my 401st books last summer when I was made redundant and needed money  &#x1f622; Although I do have access to a copy through my chums in the Historical Society   &#x1f603; <br/> <br/> Roger and out<br/> <br/> Dale <br/><br/>improvise, adapt, overcome<br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/4/2010 8:57:08 AM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"EDanaII":</span><br/>Or you mighta read about it on this site. There's a thread devoted to it where Paul helped my reconstruct a 1/48 scale replica of the plane. (And it's Deja Vu all over again!) :)</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> Well, I DO remember that thread on here, but I am pretty sure that I saw it mentioned in a book. I did not get a chance to go back and check last night...got tied up with some other stuff (talked with a friend, and found out his dad is a WWII collector, my model got here, etc...)<br/> <br/> So, will check again.... <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/4/2010 9:01:59 AM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"Phoenix":</span><br/>Mary Alice,<br/> <br/> Just reading through this thread and retracing it to the beginning you may be interested to know that in 'The Pictoral History of the 401st' "The Blue Book" there is a dedicated article to a mission flown by 'Mary Alice' a lot to do with her reputation for being the most battle damaged B-17 in the 8th!!!!! I think. They do come up occasionally on e-bay etc. can't help more than that as I had to sell all my 401st books last summer when I was made redundant and needed money  &#x1f622; Although I do have access to a copy through my chums in the Historical Society   &#x1f603; <br/> <br/> Roger and out<br/> <br/> Dale</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> <br/> Well, I did NOT know that!!!  i do know that "the blue book" has been referenced to as "THE" book to have, but is also very hard to find. I have not actually started my search for THAT book yet, as I feel that I should look for the 'easier" stuff here in the beginning, to get me started, and then once I become more familiar/knowledgeable, etc...THEN look for that "rare stuff.<br/> Now, if someone was to find a copy for me, and provide a link, I would not be opposed to purchasing it that way  &#x1f602;   &#x1f644; <br/> <br/> But basically I can say this to ALL of you guys out there....if someone is to come across ANYTHING with Mary Alice in it, or about it, then KEEP ME IN MIND!!!! More than likely, I want it, I want to know about it, want to talk about, or I want to buy it! <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''donaldbyers''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/donaldbyers.jpg' /></div><br/>2/4/2010 12:49:28 PM 
| Blue Book on E-Bay pertty steep at $250.00 without bidding.  Also am not sure if it is a copy or one of the originals.  The originals had the squadron emblems in color.<br/> [http://cgi.ebay.com/WW2-401st-Bomb-Group-Pictorial-Record-Book-Nose-Art_W0QQitemZ270523637356QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3efc771e6c]<br/> <br/> Don <br/><br/>Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.<br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/4/2010 4:43:24 PM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"donaldbyers":</span><br/>Blue Book on E-Bay pertty steep at $250.00 without bidding.  Also am not sure if it is a copy or one of the originals.  The originals had the squadron emblems in color.<br/> [http://cgi.ebay.com/WW2-401st-Bomb-Group-Pictorial-Record-Book-Nose-Art_W0QQitemZ270523637356QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3efc771e6c]<br/> <br/> Don</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> Wow, that thing IS teh Holy Grail!!  At bottom of that listing, it SAYS it is an original, but you know how that goes.  For that kind of money, gonna have to pass right now. Not to say one day I won't pay that, as if I have to, i will. Also not saying it is not worth that, as to me, really can't put a price on history like that. But just starting out, will have to work my way up to that one. <br/> Thanks for posting it up though Don! <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/6/2010 8:05:27 AM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"EDanaII":</span><br/>Or you mighta read about it on this site. There's a thread devoted to it where Paul helped my reconstruct a 1/48 scale replica of the plane. (And it's Deja Vu all over again!) :)</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> EDana...OK, I just went back from page 1 up until where I am right now in my book, "Masters of the Air" and found no mention of Hard Seventeen. HOWEVER, teh day I bought this book, I had also thumbed/did some reading in teh book, "The Bomber Boys:Heroes Who Flew the B-17's in WWII"...so, it might have been there where i saw mention of Hard Seventeen.<br/> Granted, it might be some deja vu, but I don't want to leave anything to chance, because if it mentions Hard Seventeen in that book, I would want you to know about it...so, gonna check it out as soon as I get a chance. <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''EDanaII''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/EDanaII.jpg' /></div><br/>2/6/2010 11:48:56 AM 
| Not to discourage you or nuthin', Derrick, 'cause I don't wanna, but I already have a good source on all things Hard Seventeen, since he was there. &#x1f642; But you never know, you might uncover something he didn't know about or simple forgot. <br/> <br/> That said, your thoughtfulness is appreciated. &#x1f642; <br/><br/><a href='/p2769.ashx'><img class='ForumMaxImgWidth' src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/wmSig401st150p.gif' /></a><br/> <br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>2/6/2010 1:35:29 PM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"EDanaII":</span><br/>Not to discourage you or nuthin', Derrick, 'cause I don't wanna, but I already have a good source on all things Hard Seventeen, since he was there. &#x1f642; But you never know, you might uncover something he didn't know about or simple forgot. <br/> <br/> That said, your thoughtfulness is appreciated. :)</blockquote><br/> <br/> No discouraging me...and I figured you had probaly gotten most info you will ever need, and most info has been shared..like you say. However, just like you said, you just never know what else there might be out there, and hey, if it is something you already know, no biggie..to me, was worth the shot. Same token, if it was something you did NOT know about, then hey, SUPER COOL!! I was able to help out...<br/> My thing is this...you guys have been a HUGE help to me, and if I can TRY and return a favor, then i will do so. So, once I get a chance to run back by..will take a look see and see what I come up with...and thing is, it MIGHT have been just deja vu, but no sweat off my back if it was. Would like to be able to KNOW for sure if it was.... <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/2/2010 12:07:20 PM 
| OK guys, wanted to update....I had finished Masters of the Air a couple/few weeks back, and I am now onto the next book. I bid on "the Blue Book" on ebay, thanks to Don finding it, and I THOUGHTI had it won, but someone came in last sec and outbid me my like $1.00!!!!!! And the worst part about it is, it went for CHEAP (considering what I have seen them go for anyways)..it went for $101.00 or so. <br/> <br/> Anyways, I ahve been on lookout for another one, but in meantime I a going to pick up another book. I am trying to find one of the following:<br/> <br/> The Mighty Eighth, A history of the U.S. 8th Army Air Force (freeman) (was told a VERY good read)<br/> Flying Fortress (Jablonski) (was told ALOT of detail info on the B-17's)<br/> Mission 376: Battle over the Reich (my grandpa flew on this day, so really would like to read it)<br/> <br/> <br/> Now, there are other books on my list, but those 3 above are teh one's I would like to read next.<br/> <br/> Thanks all for your help!<br/> <br/> PS: My model plane of Mary Alice is ALMOST done.... <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''donaldbyers''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/donaldbyers.jpg' /></div><br/>4/2/2010 12:48:05 PM 
| [http://www.amazon.com/Mission-376-Battle-Over-Reich/dp/1902109031]<br/> <br/> Ivo Does pretty good at writting books, I do have that book but have not read it yet.<br/> <br/> Don <br/><br/>Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.<br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/5/2010 11:36:43 AM 
| Thanks Don....gonna check it out! <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''ElmersTune''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/5/2010 4:19:25 PM 
| This is a very good read.  The crew of Elmer's Tune, with a substitute tail gunner, was also on this mission.  My father contributed to this book.<br/> <br/> Bill <br/><br/><br/> 
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| '''donaldbyers''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/donaldbyers.jpg' /></div><br/>4/5/2010 8:10:27 PM 
| Thanks Bill, I have kept in contact with him for over 10 years now.  He is the one that set me on the course in finding out what aircraft my uncle went down on and me joining the 401st Bomb Group....<br/> <br/> Don <br/><br/>Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.<br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/10/2010 11:00:47 AM 
| Ok guys, just ordered the book (mission 376), should be here @ Wed or Thursday of next week.<br/> <br/> I also picked up a "book" yesterday, more like a long magazine, but is called FW190 vs. B-17 Flying Fortress.....looks interesting. I picked it up yesterday from Barnes and Noble as I was looking for some other stuff on WWII/B-17's/Eighth Air Force, etc...<br/> <br/> Will let you guys know how it turns out. <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/10/2010 5:10:59 PM 
| Well, that book I picked up, kind of biased towards the FW....giving statistics on how many B-17's it shot down (but not really mentioning thier own losses) and things like that. Not big on ANY type of literature that speaks in bias. Take "Masters of the Air" for example, it gave TRUE facts, and if that meant the B-17 suffered heavy casualites, then so be it. It gave it to us straight up fact, and not to make the B-17 to be some type of superior machine, which is what this book, FW190 vs B-17 does do unfortunately (make teh FW to be a superior machine). <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''donaldbyers''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/donaldbyers.jpg' /></div><br/>4/10/2010 10:30:15 PM 
| Hum that is interesting to learn.  The B-17 was named the fortress because of how much it could take a beating and get their crews home, not stating it was superior.<br/> <br/> Don <br/><br/>Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.<br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/11/2010 9:50:17 AM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"donaldbyers":</span><br/>Hum that is interesting to learn.  The B-17 was named the fortress because of how much it could take a beating and get their crews home, not stating it was superior.<br/> <br/> Don</blockquote><br/> <br/> <br/> Yeah, let me clarify Don, as I think (as I read it carefully) that it might be confusing, so here is what I meant to say:<br/> <br/> <br/> Masters of the Air was a GREAT book, VERY informatiive, and I leanred more than I could have possibly hoped for from it....and the book was NOT biased in teh least bit. It gave us teh facts as they WERE, and take for example, when we suffered HUGE casualties, especially in the beginning, it stated it. It stated the B-17's weak points, and how they improved it, to try and make it better as they got more flight time. Also gave us first hand knowledge of what our guys went through up there, and it also stated that if it wasn't for the help of the P-51's, the War might have been a different stpry. Now, of course, it gave us knowledge on how strong the B-17 was, and how it coulld survive ALOT of punishment and still get our boys back home, with engines on fire, wings shot off, holes blown in her, etc..It gave us it's efficiencies and deficiencies, both bad and good, and not once did it ever say that the B-17 was a dominant machine, that it "manhandled" the opponent. It did it's job, and did it well, but not without it's losses and shortcomings as well. Masters of the Air stated all of that, and was NEVER biased towards the B-17.<br/> <br/> Now, this "book" I picked up yesterday, WAS biased towards the FW and teh pilots that flew it, going as far as to say "....the FW190 was one of the best air superiority aircraft of World War II, and when it first appeared over teh Channel in 1941 it sent shockwaves through the Allied air commands...."  It was stating on how dominant the FW was and how it really took it the B-17, and how superior that FW was over teh B-17, and even had a section that listed individual pilots and how many B-17's they shot down, and then had a section of, broken down my 2 and 3 month periods and year, how many B-17's were shot down (example: 2 months Jan-feb 1944 425 Bombers lost), but yet, never really mentioned how many FW's were shot down. The above info was even in "chart" form, had a whole page written out in a chart, but yet when it came time to list teh "losses" of teh FW, it was mentioned briefly, and very casual, in a passing paragraph. I guess, from what i read, the most complimentary statement was this one "....they met their match against USAAF B-17 Flying Fortress..capable of carrying 4000 pound bombs and bristling with .50-in. machine guns, the B-17 could sow deatch in every direction". <br/> I mean, don't get me wrong, this book was not like 100% biased, as it DID give some info like how strong the B-17 was, and how hard it was to shoot down, but again, it is a clear case of this book being biased towards the FW.<br/> <br/> I guess one could say that, if you JUST looked at the title, FW 190 Vs. the B-17, that yeah, teh FW 190 was a superior aircraft (not that teh Fw was a BETTER aircraft, but it was better at one on one combat, FW vs &#x1f60e;, but to me, it is like comparing apples to oranges. I mean, teh B-17 was NOT designed for that type of battle, the P-51 was designed for THAT. I don't know, I guess I was looking for just mroe info on the aircraft (especially the B-17) so when I came across the book, THOUGHT I would get that, but if you look at the title of book, it states what it's about, and I obviously overlooked that.<br/> <br/> I guess, in short, was not thrilled with book, and if anything disappointed, as I am not looking towards bias, just want true facts is all. Oh well, my Mission 376 wil be here any day now, and I ahve THAT to look forward to. <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''donaldbyers''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/donaldbyers.jpg' /></div><br/>4/11/2010 7:18:23 PM 
| Yes I understand what you were saying about the book and your clarification also.  They are both designed for different objectives and yes it is apples to oranges choice this aruthor made in writting the book.<br/> <br/> Don <br/><br/>Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.<br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/12/2010 1:33:10 PM 
| <blockquote><span class='author'>"donaldbyers":</span><br/>Yes I understand what you were saying about the book and your clarification also.  They are both designed for different objectives and yes it is apples to oranges choice this aruthor made in writting the book.<br/> <br/> Don</blockquote><br/> <br/> Ah, ok Don, just making sure...guess it looks like it was I who misunderstood your post!! LOL!!!<br/> <br/> <br/> As I was saying, in a haste, looking for a book, and came across that one, it SEEMED at the time a good read. Again, guess I did not pay much attention to the title, and if I did, guess I would have figured out what the book was about, DUH!<br/> <br/> So, I guess I can't blame author so much in my disappointment, as I shoud blame myself for not paying closer attention. Oh well, will pay closer attention next time.<br/> <br/> In hindsight, not really sure WHY you would write a book about those 2 SPECIFICALLY going up against each other, and as mentioned, would have thought, book would have been written about the FW 190 Vs. P-51 if anything.  However, for all I know, there IS a book by this author written about it, and I just did not come across it. Oh well, at least I saved YOU GUYS from disappointment, LMAO!!!!! <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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| '''MaryAlice''' <br/><br/><div class='poster-info'><img src='/public/Attachments/ForumNew.MainPage/NoAvatar.gif' /></div><br/>4/12/2010 1:58:23 PM 
| Mission 376: Battle over the Reich 28 May 1944 is set to be delivered on April 15th according to my email I got from Amazon over the weekend. Can't wait!! <br/><br/><span style='color: #0000FF'>Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt  Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"</span><br/> 
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