General Posts #264

"Paul Bellamy":
From all available evidence, the nose art on Mary Alice was only on the port/left side of the nose.
It would also appear that the IWM Duxford's rendering is not 100% accurate, although what images they used for their paintwork references isn't entirely clear at present.

There was a decal sheet available in 1/48 scale for Mary Alice, in the correct WW2 colours, but the company that made them was liquidated in 2008.
They do turn up on eBay from time to time, the item is Meteor Productions' "Cutting Edge Decals sheet CED48279"
Pictures of this sheet can be seen HERE and HERE.
The paint scheme is the standard Olive Drab upper and Grey undersides, the line between the two varied according to manufacturer. Note that Mary Alice came out of the Boeing factory in bare metal, and was presumably camouflage painted at an Air Depot in England prior to her arrival at Deenethorpe so there may be a further variation.

Hope that gives you a start, there are a number of black and white period detail photo's of parts of Mary Alice in The Blue Book which I can scan for you if required.

All the best,
Paul

"Paul Bellamy":
The colours should be easy to find at any hobby store.

Upper surfaces: ANA 613 Olive Drab. Current FS 34084
Underside: AF 41 Neutral Grey. Current FS 36173

The interior colours are also available, but what bits of the inside of which B-17 was what colour on what date is a subject that researchers have been arguing about for decades. 😉

All the best,
Paul

"donaldbyers":
As an item of interest, Nose Art can be found on bothsides of a B-17 but that was all up to the crew. Some B-17's have two names because another crew who have taken over the aircraft put their own stamp/nose art on it.

Don

"donaldbyers":
My B-17 which is 1/72 scale has been in the works for two years and should be closing in on it's compleation in a couple of months. I need to find 401st BG markings for it. I need to contact the person that is doing it for me and let him know that I will be going back into the hospital the end of this month and won't be able to drive and pick it up.

Don

"Phoenix":
Mary Alice,

Just to let you know that for no other reason than the replica is just down the road at Duxford the 'Mary Alice' is my adopted ship within the 401st, so to have someone on board who is related to a crew member is good news. I have made a model of the 'Mary Alice' in 1/72 a Hasegawa kit the markings came together from variuos decal sheets and the nose art I did free hand 🙄 . I would like to let you see my efforts but as I don't have the computer wit to get pictures onto the forum can you give me an e mail address so I can send them that way or Paul, Ed, Don etc can explain step by step how I should get pictures onto the forum :shock: phew. Just one last thing as along with Paul I am all over Deenethorpe on a regular basis I am still waiting for his genius to locate the dispersal spot of 'Mary Alice' so I can go mooch around and breath in the history 😂 over to you professor Paul 😉

All the best

Dale

"Phoenix":
Thanks for all that chap, however I've got a handle on that bit I just don't seem to be able to make my images larger for whatever reason 😢 Anyway that can be dealt with another time.
I wish you luck with your model there is not that much on the market as far as B-17G's go. I decided to go with Hasegawa as they are about the best, I would'nt touch Airfix and Acedemy are good but pricey 😢 . If you want to go big in 1/48 then there is the Revell/Monogram version which I dismissed as it is very large and I don't have the room and to make a good fist of it you would have to spend a fortune on upgrades, guns, engine nacelles, undercarriage etc but as Professor Paul pointed out there is a decal sheet for that size if you can find one (e bay etc I would guess).
I have been putting together a bit of a history for 'Mary Alice' missions, crews all that kind of stuff I have a fair bit of info to research and people like Paul and Don have other additional information so it is slowly coming together. However and I think this is crucial, we collectively, need to get to the bottom of dispersal locations for individual aircraft. The late George Menzel managed to find the dispersal pan for 'Maiden USA' so the information is out there somewhere. I reckon Professor Paul and Don have a better handle on finding that information than the likes of myself so I'm leaning heavily on them and as rumours persist of housing going on the airfield site then information on aircraft dispersal spots are, in my opinion, becoming vital.
Did you know there is a painting of the 'Mary Alice' by I think it's by Ron Hill I've put the image here for you to see, small size of course 🤦



Tally Ho

Dale

"win-win":
Hi:

A little detail to remember about B-17s and models:
- - Early B-17s had their waist-gunner windows/positions 'opposite' each other on the left and right side of the fuselage (so the two waist gunners inside were back to back and probably bumped into each other when the action was hot; but
- - Late B-17s had the waist gunner windows/positions 'staggered' on the left and right side of the aircraft - one forward of the other - so gunners had more room to work.

Without opening the box of a modelB-17, I haven't a clue how to check which waist-gun port configuration the model has, or whether it's even worth worrying about. Looking at Phoenix's left-side 'Mary Alice' view, it looks like if you bought a model with a 'later' configuration (with staggered waist-gun ports) and you're modeling an early B-17, I assume the only 'difference' would be a 'swap' in position of the U.S. Star and the waist-gun port on one side and that the Squadron Code would remain positioned as it appears (outboard of the U.S. Star and waist-gunb port).

Since I don't have a model, (with good reason - my glue-work looks more like 'a blob attack') maybe someone who's actually done models could post their additions, corrections and how-tos.

"Phoenix":

I have been putting together a bit of a history for 'Mary Alice' missions, crews all that kind of stuff I have a fair bit of info to research and people like Paul and Don have other additional information so it is slowly coming together. However and I think this is crucial, we collectively, need to get to the bottom of dispersal locations for individual aircraft. The late George Menzel managed to find the dispersal pan for 'Maiden USA' so the information is out there somewhere. I reckon Professor Paul and Don have a better handle on finding that information than the likes of myself so I'm leaning heavily on them and as rumours persist of housing going on the airfield site then information on aircraft dispersal spots are, in my opinion, becoming vital.
Did you know there is a painting of the 'Mary Alice' by I think it's by Ron Hill I've put the image here for you to see, small size of course 🤦



Tally Ho

Dale

"Paul Bellamy":
There were 50 concrete aircraft hardstandings for aircraft parking dispersed around the perimeter taxi track at Deenethorpe, hence "dispersals".

Onto the model.....
I'm assuming you've ordered the Revell (ex Monogram) 1/48 scale B-17G.
If you've ordered the Pro-Modeller version, ignore most of this for now.

The Monogram/Revell 1/48 B-17 is pretty much a representation of a B-17G-35-BO as it came out of the factory, which should be a good thing as that's the same production block (35-BO) as Mary Alice. However, Mary Alice was reworked at the Cheyenne Modification Center and the Air Depot in the UK, to meet the latest specifications prior to entering combat service.
As built, she had a "stinger" type tail turret as provided as standard in the model and was in bare metal, after modification she was camouflage painted and had the latest "Cheyenne" type tail turret.
The Pro-Modeller version of the kit comes with this new turret as an extra, the standard kit does not. There are conversion kits available to add the Cheyenne turret though.

All the best,
Paul

"Paul Bellamy":
The hardstandings are there to stop the planes sinking into the mud.... 😉

Tail turret types:

Stinger:
Original fitment on the "big fin" B-17s, cramped, poor visibility for the gunner and restricted gun movement.



Cheyenne:
Note the vastly improved visibility for the gunner with the large window area, and the increased movement for the guns.



Mary Alice's tail turret:



All the best,
Paul

"Phoenix":
All right I know I don't do computers, did I tell you how much I hate computers? oh no that was Ed, 😂 anyway I can't get the size right 🤦 but here is a taster

"Phoenix":
Mary A

Note the flying jacket in the damaged tail photo Paul put on this thread. That is Dan Knight the skipper who named the Mary Alice after his Ma and the jacket is in the American Museum at Duxford, tried to photo it last year but the glass reflection put the kybosh on that 😢

Yahoo

Dale

"MaryAlice":
(quote="Phoenix")Mary A

Note the flying jacket in the damaged tail photo Paul put on this thread. That is Dan Knight the skipper who named the Mary Alice after his Ma and the jacket is in the American Museum at Duxford, tried to photo it last year but the glass reflection put the kybosh on that 😢

Yahoo

Dale

How do you subscribe to a post? I can't find a "Subscribe" checkbox or option anywhere...

"sstephenson":
My uncle, Henry Bernard McKinney, was a mechanic on the original Mary Alice. My uncle passed away in 2004, but I'm researching family genealogy and spoke with my aunt (his wife) just yesterday. She told me that she believes that Lietenant Dan Knight (last known rank, it may have changed later in his career) was still with us and living in Florida. I stumbled across this post trying to find photos of the original Mary Alice (not the replica on display in Duxford). If anyone can tell me if the above black and white photos are of the original aircraft and please let me know where I might find any others photos, I would be extremely grateful. I would like to attach them to my uncle's genealogical record. His family would be thrilled. Also, I believe that my aunt may have contact information for Dan Knight (I cannot guarantee that, I know that my uncle had his info at one time). If you contact me privately I may be able to provide it.

Also, the research I've done shows that the original Mary Alice's Serial Number was 42-31983. Is this supposed to match the number on the tail?

P.S. - How do you subscribe to a post? I can't find a "Subscribe" checkbox or option anywhere... 😉



(quote="MaryAlice")(quote="Phoenix")Mary A

Note the flying jacket in the damaged tail photo Paul put on this thread. That is Dan Knight the skipper who named the Mary Alice after his Ma and the jacket is in the American Museum at Duxford, tried to photo it last year but the glass reflection put the kybosh on that 😢

Yahoo

Dale

"sstephenson":
Thanks so much for sharing the photos. I'll speak to my aunt and see if my uncle had any photos that I could share. My uncle was part of the Mary Alice's ground crew (mechanic), but he knew the crewmen's names like it was yesterday. I know how proud you must be of your grandfather.

"sstephenson":
To: Grandson of S/Sgt Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"

Can you please PM me? I have a question for you regarding the flight logs for the Mary Alice. Thank you.

"EDanaII":
Derrick,

You might wanna consider including your name in your sig, so Steve can address you in a much shorter manner. 🙂 Just sumthin' to consider.

"Paul Bellamy":
Thanks to Don, here's a photo of Mary Alice in flight, well part of her at least:



She's in the lower left corner, and seems to be part-way through having her vertical stabiliser and rudder replaced. The new parts are in natural metal finish, the rest of the airframe visible is still Olive Drab.
It's probably at temporary paint job, as it's unfinished and the S in the triangle is a bit oversize. Still, maybe that compensates for the teeny-weeny G underneath.

All the best,
PB

"sstephenson":
Yes, Paul and Don, thanks so much for that photo. It's terrific.

Derrick,

Not a problem. You can PM me when you get the chance if you like. What I was going to ask you is if you have access to crew records for the Mary Alice's flights. Sounded like you may have them for your grandfather. What I wanted to try to find out was whether or not any of the entries may contain my uncle's name. While he was part of the Mary Alice's ground crew, he did tell me not long before he passed away that he had flown on a couple missions when they didn't have enough men for a full crew. Unfortunately this means that one or more of the crew had been recently lost.

Steve

"donaldbyers":
Steve,

I have just looked through all of the missions loading lists and am sorry to say that your uncles name doesn't appear on any of the listed crew loading lists. Now maybe they couldn't list him I don't know and only have these records to go by. Maybe you can confirm the information from Mr. Knight if you have tried to contact him.

Don

"donaldbyers":
I have not received anything on Mr. Dan Knight?

Don

"sstephenson":
Don and Derrick,

Thanks very much for your replies.

Thanks for looking at the info that you have available Don. I really appreciate it. I knew that it was a very long shot, but I thought I'd ask. Thanks again.

Derrick, I completely understand about your grandmother. Take care of her.

Steve

"sstephenson":
Hello Derrick (and all),

Thanks for asking. The crewman in the photo isn't my uncle, but it was certainly worth checking out. My uncle had a tall, rather thin build. He always had a flat-top crew cut for as long as I can remember. Half the guys there probably sported that look 😃.

I knew the flight logs were a long shot, but it was worth a try.

Take care, and I'll be in touch.


Steve

"sstephenson":
I heard from my aunt this week. She and my cousin have sent a package containing some things relating to my uncle's time with the 401st. I'll post anything that may be of interest to you all when I receive it. Take care.

Steve

"sstephenson":
Does anyone know what the numbers are in the individual boxes?

"win-win":
Paul & Steve:

Could the names across the top be the Squadron Ground Crew (or Chief) for the A/C assigned in the column?

Win

Checking just a few the one's which are X'ed out and have an "*"are one's which went down on the date indicated. Remember I didn't check them all. Also some that are recorded I checked the mission reprot for that date and they weren't listed so that means they weren't identified as to who flew them that day. It could be possible to narrow down some info here. I would like to see all of these reports for all the aircraft.

Don

"sstephenson":
Also among my uncle's things was a four page article from "Fly Past, Britain's Aviation History Monthly." If there is no objection I can link to it here. If this is against website policy I can email it to those of you who contact me using a private message.The article contains three photos, all of which have been posted here before. The captions under the photos may not have been posted here.

I also have some short articles and a couple photos on a single page that my cousin scanned for me. I'll try to make the articles readable using Photoshop and get them posted.

Steve

"Phoenix":
I guess your Grandpa sums up that generation world over, hard working, caring and modest, God bless um all.

"sstephenson":
Yes Derrick, your grandfather sounds like quite a gentleman. I so admire the selfless courage that he and others mustered up to face the challenges of their generation.

Steve

"sstephenson":
Hi Derrick,

That is amazing! Who knew a snapshot from my uncle's things could wind up
putting you in contact with someone who may have known your grandfather. Be sure
to tell him that my uncle held on to the photo all these years. By the way, my
uncle's name was Henry Bernard McKinney, but he always went by his middle name
and pronounced it like "burr-nurd" (accent on the first syllable).

I'd be more than happy to send you a copy of the photo, but as you can see from
my post, its made from a photocopy that my aunt sent to me. I'll ask her
daughter (my cousin) if there's any way that they can have a print made from the
original. My aunt lives in the middle of nowhere, so it might be a while before
my cousin makes it over to her house and can take it somewhere to have a print
made. The nearest sizable town is at least 25 miles from my aunt, and my cousin
lives about 120 miles from her. In the mean time I'll send you (or Mr. Byrom) a
copy of what I've got. Just send me an address.

Steve

"sstephenson":
I dropped off a short letter and a copy of the photo that my uncle had of Mr. Byrom at the post office this morning.

Steve

"donaldbyers":
Derrick,

Did we ever determine what he was? Such as crew member, ground crew?

Don

"donaldbyers":
Again it depends on what he did as to what the questions are.

If Maintenance then what planes did he work on and nicknames if he knows them.

If Crew then what crew he was associated with and what position did he have. Does he have a journal (above also) any records of the aircraft or pic's.

Don