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Paul Bellamy
3/26/2009 1:03:49 PM | The 401st were allocated UC-64A Norseman 43-35438 as a general liasion aircraft sometime in the second half of 1944.
Although it is visible in the distance in the famous "Deenethorpe in the Snow" photo, I'd not found a closer image.....until now. 😃 :
In the background of NARA Photo 65537AC, there she is, parked opposite Hangar 1.
'483 was in the care of the 615th Squadron, and seems to have carried their IY fuselage codes, and as can be seen in the photo she also had the 401st's yellow fin stripe.
All the best,
Paul
Paul Bellamy
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Jackie Sharp Sheflin
3/26/2009 4:14:38 PM | Paul,
Good catch!
Jackie
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win-win
3/26/2009 6:29:22 PM | Paul:
Ditto Jackie's congrats.
Amazing you were able to 'wrench' a viewable image out of a teeny-weeny piece of the NARA photo! I would have thought all you would get was the paper grain.
Win
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swinny
3/27/2009 8:08:26 AM | Fantastic , I didn`t even know this , great
_________
 My adoption graves http://www.remember-our-heroes.nl/us_401stBG.htm
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Paul Bellamy
3/27/2009 7:18:47 PM | Thanks All,
While the image quality doesn't allow me to read the serial number to positively confirm the aircraft in the picture as '438, a few things go in it's favour:
1) We know Norseman '438 was allocated to the 401BG, and is shown as attached to the 615BS on the Ops Board photo.
2) There are a total of four known photographs showing a Norseman parked at Deenethorpe, only a single one in each case, and always parked in the same location, opposite Hangar 1 within the 615BS dispersal area.
3) The one in the (cropped and magnified) image above has a diagonal fin stripe of the same tone as the ones on the two 401BG B-17s visible in the same (full) image, indicating it is the same colour. It also seems to have the appropriate black edges to the stripe, as applied to bare-metal 401st B-17s to provide a degree of definition during formation.
I'd like to class this ID as a "Probable", over to the rest of you to decide. 🙂
I wonder if I'll ever find an image of the Group's P-47 Thunderbolt hiding in the background...... 😉
All the best,
Paul
Paul Bellamy
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win-win
3/28/2009 5:34:14 PM | Paul: Answers always = more questions, right?:
- - Could there be an 'aircraft card' (on record at the NASM) for this Norseman '438' (and P-47) like the B-17 assigned A/C?;
- - Was your enlargement of Norseman '438' in this thread from an actual 8x10 photo print or from Gallery (or other) digital image (as in would a 1200dpi scan of an actual 8x10 photo print show '438' markings clearer)?
Regardless, great detective work.
Win Bryson
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Paul Bellamy
3/28/2009 7:43:31 PM | "win-win":
Paul: Answers always = more questions, right?:
- - Could there be an 'aircraft card' (on record at the NASM) for this Norseman '438' (and P-47) like the B-17 assigned A/C?;
- - Was your enlargement of Norseman '438' in this thread from an actual 8x10 photo print or from Gallery (or other) digital image (as in would a 1200dpi scan of an actual 8x10 photo print show '438' markings clearer)?
Regardless, great detective work.
Win Bryson
Hi Win,
1) Probably.
If it still exists if could fill in the gaps in what is already known:
Noorduyn Norseman MkVI, Construction No. 512, AAF Serial 43-35438.
Del to USAAF 3rd June 1944.
Transit to Newark NJ 4th June 1944.
Transit to UK 17th June 1944, allocated 8AF.
20th July 1944 Assigned to 615th at Deenethorpe.
12th January 1945 (65742AC, no fin stripe, no fuselage letters)
13th January 1945 (A65620AC, Ops Board, chalked up as C-64 43-5438 IY)
25th March 1945 (65537AC, fin stripe visible, probable IY fuselage letters)
Ground looped at Chelveston 19th May 1945, while allocated 839th Air Enginering Sqdn., 413th Air Service Group. Pilot John D Collins. (AAF Overseas Accident Report)
Into civil use in Norway by late 1940s.
Lost (sank) 14th August 1954.
2) The crop was from the copy of Photo 65537AC via Footnote.
All the best,
Paul
Paul Bellamy
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win-win
3/29/2009 6:22:06 PM | Paul:
It's hard to believe there could be more details than you've found and listed here, but I'll write NASM anyway - 'never know. Replies take quitea while...but they do reply.
Will keep you posted.
Win
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Paul Bellamy
3/29/2009 6:28:34 PM | Thanks Win,
While you're at it, could you ask about A/C Cards for the other 401st non-combat planes?
Republic P-47C Thunderbolt 41-6187 (Formation assembly observation aircraft)
Vultee A-35B Vengeance 41-31383 (Air-to-air target tug)
All the best,
Paul
Paul Bellamy
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win-win
3/30/2009 12:04:37 PM | Hi Paul:
Will do.
Since the NASM look-up is largely by vulunteers, it'll take a while. Will keep you posted.
Win
C-47? ....are you sure that's not the Blue Angels' aerobatic C-130 'Fat Albert'...in plain-Jane olive drab?
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Paul Bellamy
3/30/2009 2:49:03 PM | Ta Win.
Re. your letter, SOXO was the Shipping Designator code for items from the US to United Kingdom Zone One from 1943.
Most 8AF aircraft had this delivery code, or more rarely UGLY, which was the original designator for United Kingdom ports and airfields before logistics required subdivision from July 1943:
UGLY = UK
SOXO = UK Zone One (Scotland and NE England)
GLUE = UK Zone Two (Wales and SW England)
BANG = UK Zone Three (A later addition to cover Northern Ireland)
A quick sketch map to illustrate. Sorry, I couldn't fit the NI ports in.
All the best,
Paul
Paul Bellamy
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win-win
3/31/2009 5:48:50 PM | Paul:
...And another one bites the dust...mystery, that is. Thanks to you Paul.
And a very clear map to boot!.
Thank you very much once again.
Win Bryson
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Paul Bellamy
7/11/2009 11:12:50 AM | Another photo of '438, and more..... 😃
1: Fighter of some description. Our P-47, or a visiting P-51?
2: Another visiting P-51, or something a bit larger? A-35 perhaps?
3: C-64A 43-35438
4: B-17G for scale.
Sorry, that's the clearest I can get the picture.
I did get a date for '438's arrival at Deenethorpe though.
From the Control Tower Log:
Thursday 20th July 1944.
1800hrs
CONTROL OFFICERS NOTE
C-64 (438) will be stationed here and maintained by 615th Squadron Engineering.
Oxford DF399 has been returned to Polebrook.
All the best,
Paul
Paul Bellamy
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win-win
7/12/2009 7:41:42 PM | Paul:
My guess for A/C #1 & #2 type is 'P-51' - thin fuselage (from above) and 'squarish' wings Is there a prize?
(And aren't the ends and trailing edges of P-47 wings curved?).
What a photo!
Win
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Paul Bellamy
2/20/2010 11:03:05 AM | I've gone back to basics with the photo, something I really ought to have done in the first place.
On my screen the B-17 has a 50mm wingspan. As the real span is 104' give or take a few inches, that scales out at 1mm = 2.08'.
Mystery aircraft No.1 therefore has a wingspan of roughly 40', mystery aircraft No.2 a 48' wingspan.
A P-47's wingspan is 40' 9", whereas the P-51's is smaller at 37'.
The A-35 had a wingspan of 48'.
Those match up pretty well to the two unidentified aircraft, which are the right size and on the right dispersal.
This would mean the identities of the three planes are most likely:
1: P-47C 41-6187
2: A-35B 41-31383
3: UC-64A 43-35438
Sadly there's no way to identify the B-17 from this photo. 😉
All the best,
Paul
Paul Bellamy
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MaryAlice
2/20/2010 12:17:32 PM | "Paul Bellamy":
The 401st were allocated UC-64A Norseman 43-35438 as a general liasion aircraft sometime in the second half of 1944.
Although it is visible in the distance in the famous "Deenethorpe in the Snow" photo, I'd not found a closer image.....until now. 😃 :
In the background of NARA Photo 65537AC, there she is, parked opposite Hangar 1.
'483 was in the care of the 615th Squadron, and seems to have carried their IY fuselage codes, and as can be seen in the photo she also had the 401st's yellow fin stripe.
All the best,
Paul
Have a question for you Paul...above you say, "...and as can be seen in the photo she also had the 401st's yellow fin stripe."
Without pointing out the obvious (picture is a black and white) how can you tell stripe is yellow?
Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"
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Paul Bellamy
2/20/2010 1:39:12 PM | The 94th Combat Bomb Wing stripe was applied some time after her arrival at Deenethorpe.
As you rightly point out, from a black and white photo it could be the 351BG's red stripe, or the 457BG's blue stripe, but as it was put on while she was on the 615th's books the 401BG's yellow is the most likely.
As I posted further upthread:
3) The one in the (cropped and magnified) image above has a diagonal fin stripe of the same tone as the ones on the two 401BG B-17s visible in the same (full) image, indicating it is the same colour. It also seems to have the appropriate black edges to the stripe, as applied to bare-metal 401st B-17s to provide a degree of definition during formation.
All the best,
Paul
Paul Bellamy
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MaryAlice
2/21/2010 7:09:14 PM | "Paul Bellamy":
The 94th Combat Bomb Wing stripe was applied some time after her arrival at Deenethorpe.
As you rightly point out, from a black and white photo it could be the 351BG's red stripe, or the 457BG's blue stripe, but as it was put on while she was on the 615th's books the 401BG's yellow is the most likely.
As I posted further upthread:
3) The one in the (cropped and magnified) image above has a diagonal fin stripe of the same tone as the ones on the two 401BG B-17s visible in the same (full) image, indicating it is the same colour. It also seems to have the appropriate black edges to the stripe, as applied to bare-metal 401st B-17s to provide a degree of definition during formation.
All the best,
Paul
Ahhhhh, see I knew there was a way you could tell, i was just not sure how, and hence, why I asked. Im trying to learn Paul, trying to learn!
Derrick Morris, Grandson of S/Sgt Engr/Top Turret William "Dale" Sartor, 615th BS 401st BG, "Mary Alice"
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Paul Bellamy
12/11/2011 7:43:35 PM | I've just found this photo of 43-35438, after she'd been transferred to the 305BG along with the 401st's PFF B-17s:
🙂
Paul Bellamy
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donaldbyers
12/11/2011 9:31:08 PM | Great find Paul, wished she still had our markings......
Don
Sgt. Donald C. Byers, 613th Bomb Squadron, Togglier, 42-97344 Carrie B II, KIA 08/24/1944.
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